Stupidity will cost us November.

The Ministry of Information is willing to work for Democrats just as willingly as it worked for the Bush administration.  Why bother with listening to anything you don't want to hear when you can create all the information you need?

If is a frightening prospect - all the more so since in this day of electronic communications it much easier to airbrush Trotsky out of the photos.

Cheers for all your work - both phone banking and writing. I appreciate it.  And jeers to all of those who made racist or sexist remarks.  Neither Obama nor Hillary deserve such.

Sorry about your experience.

I never got to experience this Kos/MyDD bullshit until after the fact. It all seems supremely stupid to me. I don't understand.

and saying this.  As a JRE turned HRC supporter, I appreciate very much that you can see this behavior as it is impossible to have a civil, progressive discussion, or report on good news for your candidate with this kind of nonsense.

The phone banking you are doing is important. Don't let the responses you get, online or over the phone, get you down or turn you against your candidate.

I'm a Clinton supporter, so I'm hoping Obama loses Indiana, but being politically engaged for any of our candidates is a good thing.

wow that sucks.

maybe we should wear tags like "im one of you: a democrat"

or like "wait im a dem too..."

or my favorite "hate my candidate but dont hate me"

Well put diary.

I had several friends who were on the fence back in late Jan./early Feb., and they wanted to know what was really being said by the netroots.

So I directed them over to a few sites, the DK being one of them.  We had a get together a few days later, and every single one of them became Clinton suppporters.  We discussed what their concerns were, and if maybe they were over-reacting.  Within 1 week of that get-together, they kept lurking on the diff. sites, but DK they said the vitrol was the worst.  By the end of that week all 10 couples maxed out for Hillary.

The "mob" over at DK can "concern troll" themselves with that fact, (--which I posted at the time when I was posting there) that they were the greatest fundraising tool AGAINST Obama that I'd ever seen.

What concerns me in your diary is the tenor of disagreement that we are now getting on both sides when phone banking.  I'll have to say...PA, and so far IN have been great places to call, and even NC has not been that bad at all.  But every once in a while I'll get that same response to/against Hillary that you're getting to Barack.

The playing hard is fine.  The hitting below the belt is what needs to stop.  But like in war, for a cease-fire to take place both sides must adhere.  I don't see that happening now.

nrafter530,

I will try to remember your post and name and will try to be extra careful and respectful to any and all comments you might make.

david

I read your diary at DK and then I read your past diaries and most were in the same vein - all woe is me about how badly Obama was doing and acting "concerned". Anyone can check. Now you're doing the same regarding DK. I say either you are a concern troll or you're a chronic malcontent and don't feel happy with much of anything (DK, MDD, Obama or HRC), which is OK, that's your right. Just so we know.

It's great that you phone bank - Keep up the good work!

But don't expect a lot over here. People who support Obama get down rated all the time over here when they post even when they are perfectly civil. And there are lots of diaries here that trash Obama over real crap, like Ayres.

So, get ready for some challenges over here. I'm willing to be here and to argue in a civil fashion, but it isn't terribly easy.

I tried out Kos a few times and had the same reaction you did.  There is something toxic about that site.  It does have some good issue pieces but the candidate stuff, especially I think if you support Obama and see their behavior as a direct reflection on yourself and your candidate, is just awful.

As an Obama supporter, I really hope you continue to phone bank, and continue to bring back stories from the front.  There is not half enough of that kind of reporting from the campaigns,and wayd to much Wright, fingers, et al.

I looked at some of your past diaries on DailyKoS and I have to ask you a question.

How do you think diaries similar in tone and content, but about Hillary, would have been received here?

By the way, Obama seems to have picked up a pledged delegate in Iowa this weekend:

http://www.iowaindependent.com/showDiary .do?diaryId=2270

and gave you some mojo over there.  tough crowd of people.

Yeah, I had to leave the Maelstrom a while back myself.  Too many people, too much memory, too little forgiveness for minor mistakes, and no forgiveness at all for people who's positions and knowledge changes over time.  When I left, I stopped using the handle I used on Kos entirely.  Didn't want to deal with that history anymore.

I have read your original post and the comments you mentioned, but how on earth can someone criticizing you turn you against your choice for president.  This does not make any sense to me at all.  It is true people were critical of you, but your post was a bit...odd let's say. And just for the record, the comments in gray boxes in your post are the accepted standard of many of the most prolific posters on MyDD.  Just go look at the most commented diaries next to your diary for a second.  Again, you are actually jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire here compared to DKos, so I don't get it.

Obama is my choice for president because he is the best, most qualified choice to be president and the only person offering to take this country forward and not backward.  I am not voting for him because his supporters are a neat group of people to belong to, or I really like some blog or another.

If the bad behavior of some at DKos is that offensive to you, I guarantee you are going to be more disappointed here.  I spend time primarily on these 2 blogs and let me tell you, the bar is certainly no higher here, and very imbalanced in favor of Clinton.  That's why I spend more time here, I figure why preach to the choir at DKos when I can engage folks who might possibly be swayed some day to vote for Obama on this sight.

Just take a look at the Rec'd diaries calling Obama the affirmative action candidate and his that his candidacy makes some of these people think anyone now qualifies to run for President as a Dem.  This is about the most insulting thing you can say to an  Obama supporter, and shows there are a number of people here who will say and do anything to support a lie they want other people to believe.

Having said that, there are also a whole lot of smart, thoughtful people here just like on DKos that will engage in dialog, even when they disagree, which is again why I spend time here.  I really like some of these folks.

So, I don't know, if you are almost scared away from your candidate that easily, you may want to remember why you like Obama's message in the first place and not look for validation outside yourself. Don't let the critics get to you.  He is the only person qualified for the job this cycle.

Wow, I've never really looked over there before. Quite alot of hate.

and have concluded that what you are writing here is unfortunately true. I did find some of the diaries quite interesting especially the personal anecdotes.  I have to say there were some DKos bloggers did support you in your last diary. But some of the comments were personal attacks and was very unfortunate. Some of the DKos bloggers are not very tolerant of anything that is out of line of their preconceived ideas.

Your last diary was depressing especially some of the comments that you heard from the call receivers. Racism hath no place in 21st Century America. Since you believe strongly in supporting Senator Obama, I say, please continue to do what you are doing, including phonebanking, writing diaries, et al. Sometimes life in general can be depressing, but we shrug it off and take it on stride and move on to do the best we can.

I'm not a Senator Obama supporter but definitely applaud your efforts on behalf of his campaign and certainly hope that you carry on the good work.

You stated

Excited Hillary supporters who had nothing nice to say about Obama, less excited Obama supporters who had what appeared to be doubts about Obama. Too many Democrats who said they've voting for McCain. Ugly racist comments from some Clinton supporters, ugly sexist comments from Democrats for McCain and just plain ugliness in general.

How about some specifics?  What exactly were the sexist comments? The "ugly racist" comments?  I'm not disputing your claim, but it's hard for me to imagine people actually saying these things to an unknown person on the telephone.

As for DKos, I quit back in March and have enjoyed much better blood pressure ever since.  

Dear nrafter530,

Thank you for your thoughtful--dare I say courageous--post.  It saddens me that such vitriol exists within our own party.

I have felt very similar feelings.  After reading some toxic posts, I found myself wanting "the other guy"--a DEM--to lose.  Then, like you, I sat back and thought..."Oh my God, am I really thinking McCain???"

As it happens I support Hillary, but have great respect for Obama.  I will wholeheartedly support the Dem nominee.  Both "sides" need to keep in mind however much we may support our preferred candidate, the difference between either HRC or BHO and McCain is night and day.

Good luck in you phonebanking.  I hope posts like yours return all of us to good sense as DEMOCRATS working together.

Peace.

Just read your Kos diary.

I had a similarly bad experience doing canvassing for Obama.  I do live in the reddest county in the state, though, so it's to be expected, and I knew going in that I really don't have the right temperament to do this stuff.  When McCain supporter had the balls to tell me that Obama is dangerous (yeah...because it's Obama who wants another fucking war...idiot), and I was kind enough to simply say "well, then we disagree," and he came back with "you're too young to know better."  RAGE.  Then he wished my wife and I "bad luck."  Fucking asshole.  

But it's GOP country, so I'm not surprised.  I am surprised that the place I've lived in my whole life has people who are this rude.  I haven't been to too many places that are friendlier than where I live, but that day the assholes were out in force.

BUT...on another note...that same day a courthouse square block party for Obama got 800 people to early vote, so the enthusiasm is there.  But this state, barring a miracle, will be red in November, and that's just how it is.

Hey my friend,

I'm for Hillary and occasionally diary at Kos. Heres' the thing. Obama's supporters skew young, so you have to take some of those comments as the comments of angry kids. Teenagers, many.

I don't like the comments and frankly, don't like Obama but you can't take it too seriously. People project their own anger and frustrations into politics. They see OBama as some kind of savior, and new politics( which is a joke to me anyway) becomes a place for them to project their venom and hate.

Don't worry about it.

Nice diary.  I've recommended it.  Honest, refreshing, and brave.

i Just tune out for a while.

then go back, then it gets sickening and the cycle repeats itself.

 I was never for Obama.  I was neutral at the beginning, but the non stop hate toward Clinton led me to defend her, and then support her, and then love her.  I am so glad I used to visit Daily Kos once upon a day.

Looking up comments you made before you were born to throw in your face, is a favorite thing to do over there for the subhuman ones who dwell in hidden comments, by the way.

because Markos has encouraged it to become disgusting. He has kept feeding the vile rhetoric over there until it became a toxic place populated by people who think alike and who are as intolerant as the most extreme right-wingers from the republican party.

But i said it before here. I know some DNC officials  and other democratic officials (from my time when i was involved in 1988 and 1990 campaigns) who are extremely turned off by Markos. All they are waiting for is this election to be over and then they will pay him a visit and put his little arrogant ass in place. Markos is an idiot and he burned all the bridges that needs to cross to the other side.

sufficiently 'open' to Hillary that I converted from John Edwards to Hillary.  Orange Satan can definitely credit themselves for that one.

    and both websites have supporters that go over the Top.

   A certain Hillary supporter on here actually declared that Barack Obama would pardon all crack dealers b/c he "sympathized with them."

   Dailykos and MyDD are simply two political blogs operating in the midst of a big political struggle. Neither are run by demons or bad people.

  Quit blaming the sites for your own resentments. Markos and Jerome are right not to weed out posters except when necessary. Quit blaming them for the lunacies posted by some troubled people.

guy who supported Obama but his wife supported Hillary. Both of them were for long time active members of the DKOS. And his wife expressed her support for her favorite candidate on the dailykos and she kept being literally bullied. The nastiness reached its zenith when some supporters of Barack got hold of her email (she posted it in her profile) and they started sending her threats, and nasty emails, and even viruses.

Both of them left DKos. The husband was so mad that he swore up and down that he will not vote for Obama in the GE. I think his name was Tudor or something like that. You might want to check his dairy or comments.

So, what happened to you is no different from what happen to others. Again, i blame Kos himself for setting the negative tone in the blog with his idiotic posts.

I also appreciate honest diaries that do not try to hype up the drama level.  We are not in the same camp here, but cheers to you just the same.

<>I support Senator Clinton, I do not support Barack Obama and I will not have my party held hostage by blacks. If it means we have to lose in November, then I'll see to it Obama loses and they shut up. How dare they destroy a good Democrat!<>

<> I will not support a racist. Barack Obama is clearly a racist. I will not support him now nor in November. I will not spend the next four years having the President and his goons call me a racist whenever I disagree with him. <>

<> If Obama wins, we're all screwed. <>

<> I will not live in a country that elects a black man. He's not Martin Luther King. <>

<> I like Obama, but he's a Muslim, we can't elect a muslim. <>

Well, he's not a Muslim, he's a member of the United Church of Christ

<> I'm sure that's what he told you. I wish someone had told me [Andre] Carson was a Muslim. I wish he had said it. I never would've voted for him. I was duped into electing a terrorist <>

Wow.

<> Do you really think Barack Obama is the appropriate name for a President? <>

As if one exists?

I even got mocked by two Clinton supporters

<> don't you just hang up the phone, HOPE I vote for Obama and maybe I will. <>

<> Yes I can vote for Obama but yes I will vote for Clinton. <>

One Clinton voter, who said he will most likely vote Obama "if he feels like it that day" scolded me for about two minutes;

<> Do you realize what a joke you guys have become? You're the laughing stock of America. I have never seen such naivity and cluelessness in my entire life. You're the Ron Pauls of the Democrats. <>

One Obama supporter, a young black woman from Gary, almost brought me to tears;

<> He's not going to win <>

The nomination or the GE I asked

<> Neither. The Democratic Party is going to realize a black man can't win...and they'll give the nomination to Clinton. It's ok though, this country isn't ready. I understand. It's better to do that than to let him get humiliated against McCain <>

said another Obama supporter;

<> The thrill is gone. I'll still vote for him, but I think it's pretty much a given McCain is going to win. Best go help keep Congress. Keep McCain's coattails as short as possible. That's what I'm doing for [Baron] Hill <>

Here's the anti-Hillary ones I didn't post on the other side;

<> She only wants to be President so she can kill people legally <>

I suppose that's a Foster reference

<> If we elect a woman, the terrorists will walk right over us <>

<> Hillary hates black people. She's offended she has to run against a lowlife <>

I've visited dKos most days during the last two years. I like the clarity and depth of analysis there on the front page and in a few of the diaries, but there are some unhelpful behaviors there, too. Unfortunately feeding frenzies and jumping to conclusions happen in many places, certainly in all political places. So does denial. So does killing the messenger.

I've only posted two diaries at dKos. I posted one in 2006 honestly wondering what people thought was making universal health care hard to make reality. It told me something about the people who responded, especially the one who called me a "neocon in drag", even though I made it clear why I want universal health care. I guess he didn't believe me. Suspiciousness is a natural thing in people, more in some than others.

I'm glad the term "concern troll" came along. People do act this way, such as Republicans who are so concerned Jeremiah Wright's defense of the African-American church will hurt Senator Obama. Right, tell me another one out of your great concern for us Democrats.

But people are just getting used to the concept, and I notice they overdo it. Part of the current problem is that you labeled yourself a concern troll in a previous diary, so some people seemed to read that and not read anything more. The volume of people at dKos may make it harder to avoid such venom there or maybe Markos just attracts a lot of bad people, even bitter people. I'm glad I'm not running for office so I can use that b-word.

Why would you blame Obama for people who attacked you? I suppose that's human nature, too, to spread such blame around, as is jumping to conclusions, selfish comments on TV and whatever else. But human nature can be overcome.

Don't be too down about all the McCain stuff, Indiana is a Republican state.  It will go McCain.  

Some of the folks sound like idiots (Barack Obama an appropriate name? WTF?).

But I'm also not surprised to see some hostility aimed at Obama because people feel like his campaign has called them racists.   And I do think this is a side effect more of supporters than the campaign itself.  How many comments and Kos Diaries have there been about all those "racists" in Ohio and Pennsylvania?  Heck, there were immediate claims of a Bradley effect after NH (since disproved).  In many ways, some of the Obama supporters have been his worst enemies and this is one of them (Reps. Lacy's and Clyburn's recent comments are another).  You don't get votes by insulting people.

I'm sorry you had such a rough day, but don't let it discourage you.  If you still believe in Obama, get back at it.  And I say that as a Clinton supporter.

I couldn't believe it when I left a lot of the big A-list blogs earlier. The hate was just too much. Of course, I'm a Clinton supporter so it got to me a lot faster.

I really do hope that all of the animosity (on both sides) is limited to a fringe fan base. I think it is. But then you hear about a few campaign folks saying or doing similar things, and you start to wonder a little.

We'll see what happens I guess. It's not much fun.

It was once one of my favorite sites and I used to be a supporter with recurring monthly payments, but what has transpired in the past 3 months is nothing short of cultist behavior.

I understand that some people like Obama as a candidate. He's a good orator and genuinely a hip guy, but to elevate him to stratosphere and revere his every word is creepy and counter-productive.

Any mention of Obama on DailyKos which does not imply that he is the second coming of Christ will get you attacked from every angle with ad hom insults and sarcastic comments. For example, if you post a diary that points out a problem with Obama you'll get 20 instant replies how Clinton is the devil and should drop out immediately.

I haven't seen so much groupthink outside of FreeRepublic.

Some people have lost the ability to distinguish amongst observation, criticism, and blasphemy.

One of the comments that jumped out at me was "Even if this is true, why say it?" Happy thoughts, happy thoughts...

Anyone who regularly talks to people about this race knows that Obama has some problems and that his message does not resonate with everyone.  If he ends up being the nominee, which seems likely, some of his supporters are going to need fainting couches to survive the campaign season.  

Most of the nasty comments and accusations came from a small group, though.  Some of the comments were reasonable and supportive.  

The OFB were a factor for me when going with Hillary, no question.

We're entitled to vote the base -- Bush's base, for example, told us a lot about Bush that our famously free press didn't tell us.